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The point of this chapter, for the large part, seems to be to show us that God has provided only humankind with the brainpower to obtain the sort of wisdom of which he speaks. We do well to realise this responsibility we have.
Peter [UK] Comment added in 2001 Reply to Peter
Yahweh continues to question Job about his ignorance of His ways.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2001 Reply to Peter
We need to recognise also that all power is of God. We do not have the power to do any of the things mentioned in this chapter. This is a humbling thought, which should bring us to be more dependant on God.
Peter [UK] Comment added in 2002 Reply to Peter
One might have thought that just one or two questions would have been all that was necessary to bring Job to his senses. However God continues to establish man#s ignorance in the matters of how God does things.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2002 Reply to Peter
ch 38 and 39 - HOW GREAT THOU ART
O Lord my God, when I in awesome wonder
Consider all the works thy hands have made
I see the stars, I hear the rolling thunder
Thy power throughout the universe displayed
When through the woods and forest glades I wander
And hear the birds sing sweetly in the trees
When I look down from lofty mountain grandeur
And hear the brook and feel the gentle breeze
Then sings my soul, my Saviour, God, to thee
How great thou art, how great thou art
Then sings my soul, my Saviour God, to thee
How great thou art, how great thou art.
If we ever begin to downsize God and think that he is not much more than us, we need to re-read these chapters. The power and glory of God leaps off the pages displaying his awesome majesty and creative works. What hope does any man have of answering his questions? All we can do is bow in humility and worship, giving honour and praise to our creator.
O Lord my God, how great thou art!
Robert Prins [Auckland - Pakuranga - (NZ)] Comment added in 2002 Reply to Robert
The little details of the way that creation 'works' - for example the way that the ostrich hatches her young (39:14-16) should cause us to appreciate that creation was of God and that the way things are reflect His pleasure. Against the evolutionary ideas that permeate society we would do well to marvel at the detailed way that creations works.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2003 Reply to Peter
Job 39:26. Job has been shown how little he understands, and how he lacks the power to do anything regarding the wonders of nature. He is now asked a series of questions about the hawk and the eagle, as to what is Job’s involvement in their life.
Did Job teach the hawk to fly, or to migrate south?
Did Job command the eagle to fly?
Did Job make “her eyes behold afar off” the prey?
Did Job provide her the ability to pass instinct to her young?
This was all provided for by the creator.
John Wilson [Toronto West (Can)] Comment added in 2003 Reply to John
It's an interesting view God gives Job of His Own creative power. The Lord "deprives the ostrich of wisdom" (Job 39:13-18). I think we can assume, therefore, that God decided that this funny bird should be so daft as to leave its eggs in the sand, not thinking that they might be crushed! Are we permitted to think that the Lord had a smile on His face?
David Simpson [Worcester (UK)] Comment added in 2004 Reply to David
V.1 Even wild beasts, cut off from all care of man, are cared for by God at their season of greatest need. Their instinct comes direct from God and guides them to help themselves during the time of the birth of their young; the very time when the herdsman is most anxious for his herd.
John Wilson [Toronto West (Can)] Comment added in 2005 Reply to John
chapter 39 - Here we have clean and unclean animals. Sometimes the clean die so the unclean can live. We have gentle and violent animals and perhaps they are symbolic of man. Christ (who was clean) died so the unclean might live. Perhaps we have the suggestion that Job was suffering, at least in part, for someone else's benefit which perhaps adds a Messianic import.
Charles Link, Jr. [Moorestown, (NJ, USA)] Comment added in 2005 Reply to Charles
We know Yahweh exists because we see the things He made (Rom 1:20). He is an awesome God whose ways are above man's ways. As the prophet Isaiah says of the LORD: For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts (Is 55:8,9). Although we cannot fully understand or appreciate Him, we can love, trust, and respect Him.
Michael Parry [Montreal (Can)] Comment added in 2005 Reply to Michael
39:2 Doubtless Job and his friends knew about gestation periods. This is not what God is asking Job. It is rather like the questions the preacher was moved to ask Ecc 11:5.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2006 Reply to Peter
39:26 Herein is a direct challenge, one of many, to Job’s understanding of the way that God works. However we must not presume that because God challenges Job that Elihu, or any other of his friends, did understand or have anything valuable to say to Job.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2007 Reply to Peter
39:19-24 God not only asks Job whether he can do certain things but now talks about the way in which a horse actually thinks. Something that only God could do.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2009 Reply to Peter
39:10-16 The way in which God questions Job is markedly different from the way in which Elihu has already spoken similarly.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2010 Reply to Peter
I. Yahweh's first speech (continued).
B. the wonders of the animate creation (God's universal care).
Job 38:39-41 - who feeds the lioness, young lions and the raven? V39 - the king of beasts "lion"<3833> (unclean) is given instinct and power to prey on others to feed its "young lions"<3715>; V41 - the "raven"<6158> (unclean Lev 11:15) is despised by people but God in His care provides for it to eat what the lion leaves (Luke 12:24).
Job 39:1-4 - does Job understand the breeding of wild animals? V1 - hunted victims such as the scruffy "wild goats"<3277> (clean) or the graceful attractive "hinds"<355> (clean) are not shown favouritism by God; V1-2 - animals give birth without the observation supervision or protection of man; V3-4 - soon after birth these young survive thrive and are independent due to divinely imprinted instinct - similarly poor and rural types often have to fend for themselves.
Job 39:5-8 - who gives the wild ass its freedom? V5 - "wild ass"<6501>, "wild ass"<6171> (unclean) is free-spirited and uncontrolled (like the descendants of Ishmael Gen 16:11-12, and an unrepentant Israel Hos 8:8-9).
Job 39:9-12 - can Job tame the wild ox? V9 - the KJV "unicorn"<7214> (clean) is rendered "wild ox" by the NIV and is powerful but not tamable unlike the domestic "ox"<7794> (Isa 1:3) - perhaps the wild ox is like a person with natural ability but too unreliable to be of value - it also reminds us that we can't control everything in our lives.
Job 39:13-18 - why is the ostrich foolish? V13 - KJV "wings"<3671> unto the "peacocks"<7443> (perhaps means ostrich - unclean) or "wings"<84> and "feathers"<2624> unto the "ostrich"<5133> (perhaps means stork - unclean) - the ostrich is known for not caring for its young while the stork demonstrates maternal care; V17-18 - the ostrich lacks "wisdom"<2451> and "understanding"<998> yet God provides for it and enables it to outrun a horse - perhaps the ostrich is like a foolish person insensitive to the needs of others but able to avoid personal danger.
Job 39:19-25 - did Job give the war-horse its courage? V19 - the horse (unclean) is given "strength"<1369> and its neck is clothed with "thunder"<7483> ("thunder"<7482> of his "power"<1369> Job 26:14); V20 - God gives the horse ability to jump; V21 - proud; V22 - not afraid; V24-25 - perhaps reminds us of people who enjoy strife and arguing.
Job 39:26-30 - is Job responsible for the hawk's and eagle's attributes? V26 - "Doth the 'hawk'<5322> (unclean) fly by thy (i.e. Job's) 'wisdom'<998>...toward the south?" - God gave the hawk instinct to determine when it should head south to a warmer climate; V27-28 - the "eagle"<5404> (unclean) protects itself from harm; V29 - "she seeketh...her eyes behold" - believers seek and search for spiritual food (Matt 7:7-9;Acts 17:11), or some look for a victim already down to pounce on, or often the clean (i.e. Christ) die so the unclean can live; V30 - believers symbolically feast on Christ's blood (Matt 26:27-28).
Job 40:1-2 - will Job still contend with God? V2 - "Shall he that 'contendeth'<7378> with the Almighty instruct him? he that 'reproveth'<3198> God let him answer it." - Job 4:3 Job "instructed many" (but overstepped when he found fault with the workings of God) - Job 33:12-13 "strive"<7378> against him (i.e. God) - Job 13:3 "...I desire to 'reason'<3198> with God."
Charles Link, Jr. [Moorestown, (NJ, USA)] Comment added in 2010 Reply to Charles
39:10-12 God is indicating to Job that whilst the animals can fend for themselves – by God’s provision – they are not reliable to care for man without instruction
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2011 Reply to Peter
Another fascinating point about this bird is that in evolutionary terms it would never have survived. But it has! Doesn't this prove that God created it as it is now?
David Simpson [Worcester (UK)] Comment added in 2011 Reply to David
39:27 “at thy command” – Job is being challenged as to whether he is, in fact, in a position of dominion over creation. That is what was given to Adam – Gen 1:26 - But Adam did not achieve this because of his sin.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2012 Reply to Peter
39:13-17 The way in which the ostrich deals with its eggs differs radically from other birds. One wonders how the theory of evolution has an answer to the behaviour of the ostrich.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2013 Reply to Peter
DIVERSITY
When God created animals, he created a huge diversity of creatures. You would have thought that he would have given them all equal intellect, equal strength, given them all the capacity of co-operating with each other and with us, and not left out certain gifts like wisdom to certain animals. But each creature is completely different from the next. Young mountain goats never return to their parents; the wild donkey lives among the salt flats where there seems to be no food; the wild ox won't be tamed; the ostrich is silly, but runs faster than a horses; the horse loves the excitement of the battle; and the hawk's eyes can detect it's food from afar. God didn't deal out the same of everything to all his creation.
It is the same with people. Some are good looking, some are athletic, some are intelligent, some are creative, come are compassionate and some are intuitive. None of us are made the same. Most of us are not all of the above. God also deals with us in different ways as he sees appropriate. One pattern doesn't fit us all. It is hard for us to see that sometimes - especially when we think that everyone should be like us.
So let's be aware that just like his animal creation, people are very different too. And let's be aware that God knows best, both in the way he created us, and in how he deals with us. Praise the Lord!
Robert Prins [Auckland - Pakuranga - (NZ)] Comment added in 2013 Reply to Robert
39:3 When God says that the animals bear their young in “sorrows” we learn that the judgment on Eve – Gen 3:16 – impacted on all creation and doubtless provides the basis for Paul’s comments –Rom 8:22 – about the whole creation groaning and travailing.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2014 Reply to Peter
39:4 Elihu’s comment about the state of the young born to animals – that they are in good condition – contrasts with Job’s children who have all died – Job 1:18-19
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2015 Reply to Peter
39:26 God’s question to Job here is appropriate for us in this day when men claim to understand how life came into existence. We can learn so much about the animal kingdom but should not presume that we know everything.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2016 Reply to Peter
39:31-32 The creator challenges Job as to his ability to order the universe. Scientists today can predict with amazing accuracy when and where planets and stars will be and are able, using these certainties, send satellites and telescopes into space. But it should be remembered that they are relying on what God has set in motion. Not what they are able to do.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2017 Reply to Peter
39:9 Adam had been given dominion over God’s creation – Gen 1:26 – but that privilege was lost. Hence God asks Job whether the can control the animals. Job should, by this, have realised that he did not have the control that God had intended man to have.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2018 Reply to Peter
39:17 Here we learn something of the creation of the birds. Yahweh is speaking - JJob 38:1 – but here we learn that it was “God” that was involved in the capabilities of at least the ostrich. “God” being an angel. Thus we learn that angels were actively involved in creation.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2019 Reply to Peter
39:26 We might not have thought of birds flying by wisdom. However the challenge that God is making is to question whether the birds fly because of Job’s power. Of course they do not. They fly because in wisdom God created them as they are with the ability to fly.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2020 Reply to Peter
39:26 We might not have thought of birds flying by wisdom. However the challenge that God is making is to question whether the birds fly because of Job’s power. Of course they do not. They fly because in wisdom God created them as they are with the ability to fly.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2021 Reply to Peter
39:5 We might have thought that the animals are of little consequence to God. However here we learn that He is intimately involved with them and their actions. Jesus teaches us similarly about God – Matt 10:29
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2022 Reply to Peter
39:3-11 Man has managed to tame animals for his own use, some of them at least. Adan was given dominion over God’s Creation - Gen 1:26 – but that privilege was lost when Adam and Eve sinned. Hence God’s challenge. He chooses an animal that man cannot tame.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2023 Reply to Peter
39:10 Before we dismiss the idea of a “unicorn” as a myth of English history we should remember, first, that the Creator is speaking here. And second the word translated “unicorn” is only ever used to describe an animal. So we should not impose onto the word our own idea based on English mythology.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2024 Reply to Peter
39:4 God, in His response, speaks here of the way in which animals which initially stay with their parents move on to independence as they grow.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2025 Reply to Peter
v.13 - I find this verse quite frightening, as I personally find it so easy to consider the work of the Lord to be a weariness. You do things out of duty instead of love, and you argue to yourself that that is better than not doing them at all. Is it? This passage suggests maybe not. Mark 14:37-38
Peter [UK] Comment added in 2001 Reply to Peter
1:2 I loved Jacob and I hated Esau Romans 9:13
1.11 From the rising of the sun ... of the same Psalm 50:1
Similarities with the time of Ezra / Nehemiah
1:8 governor 6346 Haggai 1:1, Ezra 8:36, Nehemiah 2:7, Esther 3:12
The message was directed against the priest. 1:6 2:1 because they were ignorant of the ways in which they were short changing their God. This can be seen in the way that they seems surprised at the message of the prophet in the following passages where their response is 'where are we failing?' Malachi 1:2,6,7 2:14,17 3:7,8
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2001 Reply to Peter
v.14 - Further to my comment above, here we see where the true worshipper stands - in giving that which he cherishes the most, and not keeping it for himself.
Peter [UK] Comment added in 2002 Reply to Peter
The priests who received the message from Malachi were so blind that they did not see that their lifestyle was so abhorrent to God. Notice the repeated 'wherein?' 1:2, 6, 7, 2:17, 3:8, 3:13. Such complacency is amazing - can we be so complacent
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2002 Reply to Peter
SECOND GRADE OFFERINGS
Throughout the time the Bible was written, the people of Israel brought sacrifices and offerings to the LORD at the tabernacle or temple. God required the offerings to be perfect animals or the very best the person had to offer. Today we are not required to present sacrifices and offerings to the LORD, but when we do give, the principle of giving the best that we can give, still remains.
We give offerings to God of our time, our attendance at meetings, our devotion, our intellect and our love. But just like the sacrifices that Israel brought, it is easy for us to bring second grade offerings. Maybe we give God our "leftover" time - times when there is nothing better to do, instead of devoting an offering of time to him. It is easy to feel that going to attend meetings of believers is a burden and to go with a bad attitude to match. When we give him our attendance at Church it must be wholeheartedly or we will be guilty of giving second grade offerings. If we are devoted, it must be complete - not just sometimes, if we study the word or expound it, use all our powers; and to love, love with all our hearts.
Robert Prins [Auckland - Pakuranga - (NZ)] Comment added in 2002 Reply to Robert
We maybe should wonder why God 'loved Jacob and hated Esau'. We learn Genesis 25:27 'And the boys grew: and Esau was a cunning hunter, a man of the field; and Jacob was a plain man, dwelling in tents.' We may think this some general comment on the two boys however it goes a lot further than this. Esau was a man of this world seeking to sustain himself. Jacob, on the other hand was a sojourner - 'living in tents'. The word 'plain' is elsewhere translated 'perfect' (Genesis 17:1). This description of the two boys contrasts their attitude to the things of God and provides the reason for the comment in Malachi.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2003 Reply to Peter
Mal 1:1. The name MALACHI means my messenger. He is the first of five messengers mentioned in this short prophesy.
Malachi 1:1
The priests 2:5
John 3:1
Christ 3:1
Elijah 4:5
John Wilson [Toronto West (Can)] Comment added in 2003 Reply to John
Malachi, whose name means my messenger, prophesied about 450-400 BC. After him, there was prophetical darkness for about 400 years until the dawn of the Lord Jesus (Isa 9:2; Amos 5:18). Malachi spoke a century after the Jews had returned from Babylon. Temple worship in Jerusalem had been practised. However, the keenness of the Jews' worship had given place to a matter-of-fact, begrudging adherence. Moreover, they had decided that it was pointless to bring their best cattle to be sacrificed. After all, they were only going to be destroyed, so why not save the best cattle for us, they thought. The LORD was displeased (1:8,13). After what He had done for His people, the LORD should be honoured with the best: Honour the LORD with thy substance, and with the firstfruits of all thine increase (Prov 3:9). We too should bring our best to the LORD. This all begins with the right attitude: And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men (Col 3;23).
Michael Parry [Montreal (Can)] Comment added in 2003 Reply to Michael
1:5,11,14 We know that God intended to offer salvation to the gentiles. Malachi, on these three occasions, speaks of God's name being known outside Israel. So here we have an indication of the extension of the gospel message to the gentiles.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2004 Reply to Peter
V.3 God's love to Esau is manifest in the blessing he received Gen 27:39-40, and the powerful nation he became. But, in comparison to the Messianic blessings that were to flow through Jacob and his posterity, they were by comparison as "hate"
John Wilson [Toronto West (Can)] Comment added in 2004 Reply to John
SACRIFICE OF PRAISE
Peter tells us that we "are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices to God through Jesus Christ." (1Pet 2:5) A little further on Peter enlarges on this, saying that, "you are a chosen people, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his marvellous light." (1Pet 2:9) Comparing these two verses, it would seem that the spiritual sacrifices he speaks of, equates to the declaring of praises.
In Malachi's days, sacrifices on the altar were still being offered. But God took offence at the offerings the people presented to him because they were not the best they could give. In fact, more often than not, the people gave the worst of their flocks and herds to the LORD. God is not interested in the sheep that are offered on the altar, but what he is interested in is the heart and the attitude of those who worship him. Half-hearted giving is not good enough.
We no longer sacrifice sheep and cattle but we can and should offer the sacrifice of praise. Would God have the same complaint against us? Do we give him the best of the fruit of our lips? Do we sing praises with as much energy as when we sing along to the radio? Would he be pleased with our praise?
Robert Prins [Auckland - Pakuranga - (NZ)] Comment added in 2005 Reply to Robert
V.8 Though our attitudes of mind are largely hidden from us, the actions to which they lead are out in the open for all to see. Every sacrificial animal was to be without blemish (Exo 12:5), and the law expressly forbad the offering of blind, lame or sick animals (Lev 22:18-25, Deut 15:21). A little thought should have established that blemished goods could not be presented to a human governor, much less to God, Malachi prefers this argument from human life to giving a rationale of sacrifice.
John Wilson [Toronto West (Can)] Comment added in 2005 Reply to John
Attitude is all important. As we have seen with the people in Malachi’s day that, even if the deed is right but the attitude wrong, then the effort is not acceptable to the Lord.
There will be those who claim to have done the works of Christ who will be rejected at the judgement (Matt 7:21-23).
Works performed out of love, and not grudgingly out of a sense of duty, are the only ones acceptable (1Cor 13).
Michael Parry [Montreal (Can)] Comment added in 2005 Reply to Michael
We don’t quite know when Malachi prophesied, but it was probably to the returned Jews, and chronologically comes in the right place after Haggai and Zechariah. It’s sad to realise that so soon after their return to their land they were despising God, and only offering to Him the seconds. Would the governor accept such rubbish? God asked. The Jews had to learn, and so must we, that only the very best of what we have is good enough for the Lord God.
David Simpson [Worcester (UK)] Comment added in 2005 Reply to David
1:7 In saying ‘wherein have we polluted thee?’ the priests demonstrated that they had a careless attitude to their service of God. This stands as a lesson for us. How often do we carefully consider what we are doing in the name of God?
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2006 Reply to Peter
RIPPED OFF
Have you ever felt ripped off? Maybe you bought a product that had some great promises or qualities only to get it home to discover that it was not all it was supposed to be.
Some years ago we bought a second hand car. In the car yard it looked like great value. It was bright and shiny, the motor purred, the interior was clean and tidy, and the mag wheels looked great. But within a few months of having it we realised that it was not all it was cracked up to be. The body had been bogged and touched up, it appeared to have been in an accident, and the engine had to have almost every vital part replaced in the following couple of years. Not only that, but the big tyres were very expensive to run and replace. We felt really ripped off buying that car. In the end we almost gave it away in our desperation to be rid of it.
Sometimes God feels ripped off too. Several times throughout the book of Malachi, God tells Israel just how ripped off he feels. The people did not show respect for God, they offered sacrifices that were not the very best they could bring, and they insisted that serving God was a burden.
We can look back at them and ask how they could do that to God. But it is very easy for us to do the same. Do we rip him off when we read his word without thinking about what he says? What about when we fail to pray? Or when we don't bother to go to church because other things are more important. Let's examine ourselves to see if there is any area of our lives in which God is ripped off by us, then make the effort to change.
Robert Prins [Auckland - Pakuranga - (NZ)] Comment added in 2006 Reply to Robert
As we read through this short prophecy, we can not help but to be aware of the turning away of the people from God. Again and again Malachi charges them with turning away in their hearts, while outwardly professing to serve Him, and each time, they dared to contradict God's testimony, and asked proof of what Malachi had to say.(Mal 1:2,6,7; Mal 2:14,17; Mal 3:7,8,13) They had shown an outward return to God, but their hearts were far from Him. A warning that each one of us can not afford to ignore.
John Wilson [Toronto West (Can)] Comment added in 2006 Reply to John
1:11 ‘from … of the same’ quotes Psa 50:1 to speak of the glorious spread of the gospel throughout all the world.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2007 Reply to Peter
KEEP THE FIRE BURNING
When God gave Israel instructions about the tabernacle and the altar, he said, "The fire on the altar must be kept burning; it must not go out." That instruction was repeated in the next breath, "The fire must be kept burning on the altar continuously; it must not go out." (Lev 6:12-13)
God was so upset with the priests in the days of Malachi that he said, "'Oh, that one of you would shut the temple doors, so that you would not light useless fires on my altar! I am not pleased with you,' says the LORD Almighty, 'and I will accept no offering from your hands.'" (Mal 1:10) Not only was God upset that Israel were offering reject offerings to him on his altar, but it appears that they let the fire go out. Each time they wanted a fire they had to light another one.
The altar of burnt offering and the fire on it stood for devotion. Israel were letting their devotion go out and attempting to rekindle it as it suited them. But God described their fires as useless.
Let us make sure the fire of our devotion that has been lit in our heart by God never goes out. We must feed it and keep it burning all the time. Allowing it to go out and having to rekindle it time after time is nothing like the commitment or devotion God wants from us. Keep the fire burning!
Robert Prins [Auckland - Pakuranga - (NZ)] Comment added in 2007 Reply to Robert
1:11 "My name is great among nations" A total of four times Malachi in this chapter describes God as great ( twice in this verse and also in verses 5 and 14). what we would suggest here is that the prophet is telling the priests that the time would come when all nations would come to know the God of Israel as He was revealed to Israel, through His servants of old, and as we read in the Acts of the Apostles in particular, how the Way would be opened to the Gentiles through Christ.
John Wilson [Toronto West (Can)] Comment added in 2007 Reply to John
1:2 ‘I have loved you’ quotes Isa 43:4 – the returning exiles should have known what God had said – after all Malachi was speaking to the priests who should have known the Scriptures.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2009 Reply to Peter
1:11 ‘My name shall be glorious among the gentiles’ is looking to the time of the kingdom. Those who had returned from Babylon in the days of Ezra and Nehemiah may well have thought that they were entering the time of Messiah. They were not. And we should realise that because of their rebellion we have a hope of eternal life – Rom 11:11
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2010 Reply to Peter
1:2-3 We might think it odd that god could ‘hate’ Esau. However we should think it equally strange that God should ‘love’ any of us. We are not inherently lovely. It is worthy of note that God says that there is a time to love and hate – Ecc 3:8. Of course god loved Jacob because of his character. A lesson for us.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2011 Reply to Peter
1:3-4 Israel had been desolated by the Babylonian captivity. Edom had rejoiced – Obad 1:12-13 –but God promises that Edom will suffer for her attitude to her brother.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2012 Reply to Peter
What are some aspects of our worship of God today that might have parallels with the Jews' offering of diseased and crippled animals in Malachi's day? In other words, is there a modern day counterpart to this type of "worship"?
Verses like these are classic examples of what is called at times "going through the motions". The Jews in Malachi's day were doing what was required of them outwardly, but in doing so they were "cutting corners". Why not offer the best of the flock to God as required by the Law of Moses? The reason - it would bring more money to them and make their lives easier if they kept that one and gave the blind or crippled or diseased one to God. But the point was and is - God knows and sees all and He was not happy with that kind of so-called "worship".
There are a wide range of possible applications of this principle in New Testament times when we consider the idea of "spiritual sacrifices". Paul says in Rom. 12: 1 -
"Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God - this is your spiritual act of worship."
And then he elaborates as to what he meant by "sacrifice" in v. 2 -
"Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is - his good, pleasing and perfect will."
Notice here that to offer one's body as a living sacrifice involves both negatives and positives - i.e. refraining from doing evil ("do not conform to the world") and doing what is right ("being transformed by the renewing of our minds"). And this is obviously the case throughout Scripture - the "thou shalt's" and the "thou shalt not's". Here's a passage from Amos 5:15 that gets quickly to the heart of the matter -
"Hate evil, love good; maintain justice in the courts. Perhaps the LORD God Almighty will have mercy on the remnant of Joseph."
When I think of this concept, what naturally comes to mind are a couple of passages which essentially tell us to be "all in" in whatever we do - and this obviously should apply in our worship of God. One is Ecc. 9:10 -
"Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the grave, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom."
And in the New Testament there's, Col. 3:23,24 -
"Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for men, since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving."
Paul is here actually addressing servants, but the point has to hold true for all believers in Christ.
So practically we should think of this when we meet together on Sunday mornings and be able to block out worldly things and center our minds on godly ones. It should also affect us in our efforts to read God's word regularly and really be able to understand it and apply its lessons in our lives. It should also positively affect our prayers, our jobs in the workplace, our time with family, our service to our brothers and sisters and friends and acquaintances.
I'll conclude this with an analogy from the world of sports. I myself currently participate in 3 sports, and I do, at times, enjoy watching some sports. What I simply cannot understand in the world of professional sports is the highly paid athlete that seems to just "go through the motions" - i.e. the baseball player making $10 million a year who hits a ground ball to the shortstop and trots to first base and is thrown out by 20 feet. What I love to see is the athlete that may not have the same talent as the highly paid one but does give it his all - who does everything within his power to be successful. That to me is a perfect metaphor of how believers in Christ should live their lives.
Wes Booker [South Austin Texas USA] Comment added in 2013 Reply to Wes
1:6 The fact that God had to reprove Israel for not even knowing that they were astray from God when they asked “wherein have we despised thy name?” is a salutary warning to you and I. It is all too easy to just carry on doing what we are comfortable with without appreciating that what we are doing is not Glorifying God but only satisfying our desires.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2013 Reply to Peter
Mal 1:6 Fathers. I found this verse most interesting as i am preparing an exhortation on the role of a father. Honouring your father should be set by the example the father first sets to his son. A father should be the protector and helper in a sons development, (the example surely set by the father and his son the Lord Jesus Christ) and an example the son has in how or what a man should grow into.
A son should respond to his father as sonship brings responsibilty, a son should show obedience and love through reverence. Yahweh is of course our heavenly father and we should show these qualities also to him, yet we hear prayers in our eccliesa's addrssing him as YOU instead of THEE! Even some address him as DAD! Let us as Gods children show him true reverence.
The verse also speaks of a master, a servant was to be fearful of offending his master. Col 3:22
Yahweh asks "where is my fear"? The word has the idea of respect as servants we are to uphold his commandemnts with respect.
SO yahweh is our father (we are to show him love and honour as his chosen sons) He is also our master (so we must show him obedience and loyalty).
stephen cox [Sedgley UK] Comment added in 2013 Reply to stephen
1:2-3 Rather than struggling to understand how God could ‘hate’ Esau we would do well to reflect on why. God’s feelings were based on the spiritual state of the two boys. Gen 25:27 shows that whilst Esau was a man who thought he could fend for himself Jacob was a ‘stranger and sojourner’.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2014 Reply to Peter
1:9 The call to ‘beseech’ God to be ‘gracious’ encourages the nation to appeal to God to show them aspects of His character as seen in Exo 34:6
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2015 Reply to Peter
1:11 Malachi is inspired to quote from Psa 50:1. Malachi was speaking to Judah who had returned from Babylon and had rebuilt the temple. The adversaries of Judah had tried to belittle what had been done. A cursory look at the context of the Psalm will show similarities with the time of Malachi. For example Zion is the “perfection of Beauty” Psa 50:2. Just what Jerusalem should have been in the days of the prophet.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2016 Reply to Peter
1:2 When Malachi spoke to Isreal, after their return from Babylon, it seems that they were oblivious to their godless behaviour. Here, verse :6 and verse 7 show them not understanding what they had done wrong. One wonders how often we do things wrong and do nt appreciate it, even if it is pointed out to us.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2017 Reply to Peter
1:1 Whilst there are a number of occasions when a word is spoken and it is called a “burden” there re only three times that we read of “the burden of the word of the Lord”. Here and Zech 9:1, 12:1
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2018 Reply to Peter
1:2 there are a number of occasions when the prophet points out that the people did not even understand that they were doing wrong. Here, Mal 1:6,7, 2:13, 3:8,19
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2019 Reply to Peter
1 The prophet Malachi spoke to the Jews who had returned from Babylon, probably after the ministries of Haggai and Zechariah had been completed around the time of Nehemiah’s second visit to Jerusalem. Quite a number of years after the enthusiastic return from Babylon. Complacency had set in and this is the focus of the message of the prophet.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2020 Reply to Peter
“But cursed be the deceiver, which hath in his flock a male, and voweth, and sacrificeth unto the Lord a corrupt thing: for I am a great King saith Yahweh of armies, and my name is dreadful among the heathen.”
Brother Robert Roberts wrote in SEASONS OF COMFORT – Reading the Scriptures, pp 77, 78, 79 the following:
“God has declared, ‘I am a great King.’ He demands on this ground to be honoured and to have the first place in the heart, and the best of all we have to offer. All the ceremonial appointments of the law were intended to teach this lesson. No one was allowed to approach the sanctuary except those appointed, and those only in the appointed way on pain of death. No offering was accepted with a blemish, or hurt, or imperfection. All uncleanness required purgation by sacrifice. Holiness and majesty were continually impressed on Israel as appertaining to Him in the highest degree. The lesson its individual application is unmistakable… Don’t let us insult Him by giving Him our feeblest moments to the reading to it [Bible]. Don’t let us wait till all our energies are worn out, and our faculties impaired in attending upon the affairs of the natural man. Don’t let us sit down to the Bible when nature is exhausted, and sleep hovers on the eyelids. Let us give the best time of the day… We are not without illustration of this in our day. We have seen many who, though they knew the truth, were not walking in the love of it, but in the love of themselves and the things connected with the present life—we have seen them swept from their moorings by a wind of doctrine which has been permitted to blow upon them to their destruction.” (cf. Hos 14:9; 2Thess 2:10-12).
“THERE is an unexplored depth of reality in saying, ‘Whatsoever things were written aforetime, were written for our learning’ [Rom 15:4]. All consent to the saying as a true one, but only a few go far enough in the process of ‘learning’ from what has been written… In many respects, the wisdom of God that is communicated in His word is hidden. It is accessible only to those who dig, and this digging to be serviceable must be a continuous process…” Brother Roberts, p. 75 (Emphasis added).
We miss out on very important lessons in our studies when we separate the Old Testament from the New on the grounds that it is irrelevant under Christ! The Old Testament even with all its ordinances reveals God to us; the New Testament reveals Christ to us and he is one with the Father. I cannot emphasize strongly enough the tragedy of this disconnection! If we do not study the Old, we will never understand the New in terms of knowing intimately (ginosko) God and Christ, which is eternal life (Luke 16:29-31; John 17:3).
Valerie Mello [in isolation, TN, USA] Comment added in 2020 Reply to Valerie
1:14 We maybe think it hard to imagine how it was possible to say, of the worship that was required, that it was a “weariness”. But think about yourself. How often do you put off doing the daily readings because you are tired? Or miss Bible Class because it is cold outside or for some other reason.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2021 Reply to Peter
1:6 It is probable nowadays that sons do not normally honour their father –even if they make a show of doing so. Though one would expect that true believers would do so. If the fabric of society is falling apart then we cannot expect that those who do not accept God would follow His teaching. The danger is that those who are believers are likely to be influenced by those around them. So we must be very clear where our focus is. The media – television programmes etc. do not teach godly morals but the behaviour we see there is easy to imitate.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2022 Reply to Peter
1:6-7 Doubtless the priests to whom the prophet spoke did not think that they despised God. However their actions demonstrated that they did. They went through the motions of serving God but their approach was casual and sip-shod.
Scripture is full of examples of individuals who tried to serve God on their own terms and were punished for it. How committed are we to wholehearted service to our Father?
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2023 Reply to Peter
1:6-7 The word “despised” (:6) and “contemptible” (:7) are the same Hebrew word. So we see the attitude of the priests to the things of the Law that were given to them as their responsibilities. Do we make light of the things of God that are in our charge?
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2024 Reply to Peter
1:2 Malachi challenges Israel who seemed to doubt that God loved them. We should appreciate that they have been returned to the land of Israel as Jeremiah had promised - Jer 29:10. I suppose that their experience was not as they expected that it would be when they returned. So rather than looking at their own behaviour they found fault with their God!
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2025 Reply to Peter
18:9 - What a sadly apt description of the behaviour of the 'Kings of the Earth' throughout the ages, but now it is a description that belongs to so many.
Peter [UK] Comment added in 2001 Reply to Peter
17:1 Why do you think that the angel saw the need to show John the judgment of the 'great whore'?
Actually this is simply a continuation of the way that God does nothing without telling his servants. He views His servants as His friends and as such tells them things they do not need to know 1 Kings 21:29. Also he tells His servants about the future Amos 3:7.
ch.18 - This extensive list of quotations from the Old Testament
18:2 Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen Isaiah 21:9
18:2 and is become the habitation of Jeremiah 51:37
18:3 nations have drunk of the wine Jeremiah 51:7
18:3 the kings of the earth have committed fornication Isaiah 23:17
18:4 come out of her, my people Jeremiah 51:45
18:5 for her ... have reached ... heaven Jeremiah 51:9
18:6 reward her even as she has reward you Jeremiah 50:29
18:8 shall her ... come in one day Isaiah 47:9
18:9 shall bewail her, and lament for her Ezekiel 27:31
18:10 that mighty city Ezekiel 26:17
18:11 and the merchants Ezekiel 27:36
18:12 the merchandise Ezekiel 27:24
18:12 silver Ezekiel 27:12
18:12 precious stones Ezekiel 27:22
18:12 fine linen, and purple Ezekiel 27:16
18:12 all manner Ezekiel 27:24
18:12 ivory Ezekiel 27:15
18:12 vessels ... and of brass Ezekiel 27:13
18:12 and iron Ezekiel 27:12
18:13 and wine Ezekiel 27:18
18:13 oil ... and wheat Ezekiel 27:17
18:13 and sheep Ezekiel 27:21
18:13 horses Ezekiel 27:14
18:13 and souls of men Ezekiel 27:13
18:15 The merchants Ezekiel 27:36
18:15 made rich by ... fear Ezekiel 27:33
18:16 linen, and purple ... scarlet ... gold Ezekiel 27:16
18:16 precious stones Ezekiel 28:13
18:17 And every shipmaster ... all the company in Ezekiel 27:29
18:17 trade Ezekiel 27:27
18:17 sea, stood Ezekiel 27:29
18:18 What city is like unto ....? Ezekiel 27:32
18:19 And they cast dust on their heads Ezekiel 27:30
18:21 and cast ... saying,, Thus ... Babylon Jeremiah 51:63-64
18:22 the voice ... and musicians ... shall be heard Ezekiel 26:13 Jeremiah 25:10
18:23 and the voice of the bridegroom, and the bride Jeremiah 25:10
18:23 shall be heard no more Ezekiel 26:13
18:23 for thy merchants were the great men of the earth Isaiah 23:8
18:24 all that were slain upon the earth Jeremiah 51:49
Shows how that the Babylon of this chapter draws on language which speaks of both Babylon and Tyre
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2001 Reply to Peter
mother of harlots
|
2Kin 9:22 | |
purple ... scarlet ... gold
|
Exo 28:6 |
The linking of Jezebel (2Kin 9:22) with the high priest's garments (Exo 28:6) shows how false religion in the form of the Papacy mimics the true. This is why false religions is presented as a harlot.
thy sorceries
|
2Kin 9:22 |
Another reference which draws upon Jezebel. A review of her influence upon her husband Ahab shows that she - as a whore - was able to turn a weak man away from serving his God.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2002 Reply to Peter
burn her with fire
|
Lev 21:9 |
This is how harlots were to be dealt with in Israel. So the judgement is quite in keeping with God's way. Interestingly the orthodox church burnt 'heretics' - men and women who opposed the false teaching of the church.
18:5 That God remembered the iniquities is reminiscent of how the sins of Sodom came up to Him and so He then intervened. (Gen 18:21)
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2003 Reply to Peter
17:10 In saying "five are fallen" we are reminded of Joshua's victory (Josh 10:16) over the five kings found in the cave at Makkedah.
18:3 We might think that it is only the servants of God who can be held responsible for their sins. However the fact that God is judging nations for their fornication shows that all men are guilty before God.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2004 Reply to Peter
18:8 "Lord God" of this statement is Yahweh Elohim of the Old Testament. The name of God which is prophetic of His purpose to manifest Himself in the multitude of the Redeemed. That multitude will execute the judgements written as predicted Zech 14:5
John Wilson [Toronto West (Can)] Comment added in 2004 Reply to John
The whore (17:1); the woman sitting on the beast, bedecked in purple and scarlet and jewels (17:3,4) is a description of the papacy (ecclesiastical power) in all its pomp. The beast upon which she rides is descriptive of the political power of the Roman Catholic Church (could be descriptive of a catholic Europe at the time of the end). Babylon is descriptive of Rome because Rome has followed the original idolatrous practices that Nimrod and Semiramis his wife set up in Babylon after the flood. The woman (papal ecclesiastical power), operating from Babylon (Rome), has been responsible for the deaths of countless true followers of Christ over the centuries (17:6; 18:24). As Babylon was destroyed, so shall Rome and its practices be destroyed when Jesus returns (18:21).
Michael Parry [Montreal (Can)] Comment added in 2005 Reply to Michael
17:3 Remember a women was pursued into the wilderness by a red dragon – 12:4-6
18:5 In saying that Babylon’s sins had reached unto heaven we have an interesting contrast with the original Babel. They wanted to build a tower to reach unto heaven – Gen 11:4 – the original Babel which was a pattern for all of man’s works that were to follow was seeking to emulate God. However by his own endeavours it is only his sins that reach to heaven, not his aspirations. It is only in Christ that ‘heavenly places’ are available to men. Eph 2:6.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2006 Reply to Peter
18:1-2 The association of the earth being lightened by ‘his glory’ and the fall of Babylon shows how inextricably linked is the end of the kingdom of men and the establishment of the kingdom of God. The two cannot exist side by side. Likewise the thoughts of the kingdom of men cannot exist alongside the thoughts of the kingdom of God in our minds.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2007 Reply to Peter
18:8 ‘in one day’ quotes Isa 47:9 where Isaiah also speaks of the destruction of Babylon. Jesus, In Revelation is reminding his readers that just as his father destroyed Babylon of old this ‘Babylon’ would be overthrown equally quickly.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2008 Reply to Peter
17:7 The seven heads are explained as the seven mountains upon which Rome sits (17:9). The ten horns relate to the ten toes of Daniel's image (Dan 2:41,42). Iron, originally, represented Imperial Rome; and clay represents humanity. Imperial Rome passed into Ecclesiastical Rome. It is Ecclesiastical Rome which is, then, represented by the iron that is mingled with the nations (humanity). Ten is a number of completeness. Here it represents a complete political block of nations. That block is Europe. Europe is, also, represented by the beast on which the woman (Church of Rome) is riding (17:3). Thus, in the end times, Catholic Europe will rise to confront the Lord Jesus as He claims His throne in Jerusalem. Evangelicals, and other Protestant groups, who will claim Jesus is the antichrist, will join with Catholic Europe in making war on the Lord. Their efforts will be in vain, as the Lord Jesus and His immortalised saints will crush them (17:14).
Michael Parry [Montreal (Can)] Comment added in 2008 Reply to Michael
18:4 Babylon (The Roman Church and its worldwide influence) is doomed to destruction. The Lord appeals to His people not to have anything to do with her, so as not to be included in her disaster. In this politically correct world, one is urged to merge all differences in a humanistic dance. This is fatal to one's spiritual development, and, eventually, to one's eternal life. We should, first, be knowledgeable about the enemies of Christ; and second, unafraid to defend the interests of our Lord. He is the one who can grant us immortality, not the present politically correct world.
Michael Parry [Montreal (Can)] Comment added in 2008 Reply to Michael
17:6 In speaking of the harlot being ‘drunken’ we are reminded that the forces of evil delight in persecuting the servants of God and do so to such excesses, at times, that they become so intoxicated with their hatred that they cannot stop. Thus it is with the harlot system.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2009 Reply to Peter
17:8 Perdition <684> is elsewhere translated ‘destruction’ – Matt 7:13. The context n Matthew highlights that we have a choice. Either we enter the narrow way or travel the road of the beast.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2010 Reply to Peter
CAN YOU LEAVE IT ALL?
How attached are we to the good life? Those of us in western societies probably have it better than any have had it before. Even though there is a recession on, we still have money, we still have several changes of clothes and shoes, we have plenty of food, cars to drive around in, all the entertainment we want with the internet, television, radio and other technology, our shops are full of luxuries we can buy, food is probably never restricted to plain rice or barley, and we have machines like dishwashers, washing machines and dryers to do all our hard work. Would we be prepared to leave all that for Jesus?
The prophesy of the fall of Babylon describes Babylon in a similar state to what we experience now. It is in that state that the call goes out: "Come out of her my people, so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not receive any of her plagues." (Rev 18:4)
Lot and his wife received the same call to flee from Sodom. But the last minute call and the tearing away from all that she enjoyed was too much for Lot's wife. She turned back and was caught up in the judgment on Sodom.
Where would we stand? If the call came for us to drop everything and leave, could we? Remember Lot's wife. Let us prepare ourselves now so we are ready to leave when we are called to do so.
Robert Prins [Auckland - Pakuranga - (NZ)] Comment added in 2010 Reply to Robert
17:17 God putting in their hearts is like the way that God hardened Pharaoh to fulfil His will. Of course they would have will and would think that it was their own choice, but God’s will was being fulfilled.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2011 Reply to Peter
Rev 17:12-13 The ten horns represent ten kings who give their power to the beast. Daniel also saw ten horns on a fourth beast (Dan 7:7). The 10 horns are sometimes compared to the toes of Daniel’s image. Notice in Daniel chapter 2 that we are not told that image had ten toes because the number of toes was not relevant to that particular prophetic revelation. The toes of Daniel’s image were in fact fragmented because the toes were made part of iron and part of clay (Dan 2:42). Many attempts have been made to unify Europe by force, Charlemagne (800-840AD), the Ottos (936-983AD), the Hapsburgs (1437-1806), Napoleon (1804-1814), World War I (1914-1918) and World War II (1939-1945). The Treaty of Rome (1957-present day) has been the basis on which European nations have joined together of their own free will. They will give their power and strength to the beast.
We are now witnessing the process that will fulfill the words of Rev.17:17. The outcome of this voluntary unification will be a power that will choose to make war with the Lord Jesus Christ and the Saints (Rev.17:14).
Peter Moore [Erith, UK] Comment added in 2012 Reply to Peter
17:4 The association of “purple” and “scarlet” reflects the colours God employed extensively in the tabernacle. Here we see an attempt to copy the things of God – but deficiently. Notice in the tabernacles “blue” is also regularly associated with the other two colours for example Exo 26:1,31,36
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2013 Reply to Peter
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2014 Reply to Peter
17:15 “The waters where the whore sitteth” quotes Jer 51:31 identifying the thought processes of Babylon as being what is being reflected here in Revelation.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2015 Reply to Peter
1. Rev 17:1-9,Rev 17:14,18 the mother of harlots seems to refer to the Pope/institution of the RCC; Babylon/Babel means "confusion" (KJV 1Cor 14:33) and Babylon is connected to Rome in verses Rev 17:5,6,9,18;Rev 18:2,10,16,20, 21, 23,24 etc. though some feel it refers to a more general religious apostasy. The word "Mystery" (Rev.17:5) was on the very front of the Papal Mitre till it was later removed by Pope Julius III (reigned 1550-1555) according to John Gill D.D. in "An exposition of the Revelation of S. John the Divine, both doctrinal and practical: in which is inserted I. A correct copy of the sacred text, ... ... ancient Jewish writings" (written 1776) and also (I believe) according to John Wesley in his "Explanatory Notes upon the New Testament" (written 1765).
2. The beast would would seem to be political institutions, powers, countries, apparatus controlled by kings and leaders of nations that are heavily influenced by the Pope/Vatican/RCC hierarchy that sits on them Rev 17:3,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,18 and it appears these kings who are influenced by the apostate prostitute and who in turn control the beast (political apparatus, military, etc.) will turn on the lamb (Christ) who will overcome them, then does the beast (perhaps realizing the mistake of attacking Christ?) hate and turn on the great prostitute?
Charles Link, Jr. [Moorestown, (NJ, USA)] Comment added in 2015 Reply to Charles
18:21-23 The repeated refrain that the evil spoken of will be “no more in thee” is a great comfort. A time is coming when all evil will be removed and replaced with a righteous king and kingdom.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2016 Reply to Peter
17:2 Physical fornication does not make one “drunk”. Spiritual fornication does. So the wise man advises against being deceived by “drink” –Prov 20:1 - false teaching
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2017 Reply to Peter
“… Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of unclean and hateful birds.”
What a testimony about the Mother, Roman Catholicism, and her daughter Harlots, the various names and denominations of worldly religions (cf. Rev 17:5)! Despite such a description, I was recently asked if it is alright to attend Catholic services while still keeping the Truth? The reasoning was that Catholics are more loving than most Christadelphians and he and his sister-wife were tired of being in a “loveless ecclesia.” What a sad testimony, but exchanging a loveless ecclesia for a cage of devils full of unclean and hateful birds is definitely not the answer! “Can a man take fire in his bosom, and his clothes not be burned? Can one go upon hot coals, and his feet not be burned?” (Prov 6:27,28).
We are commanded to “come out of her” (Rev 18:4), and there is no justification to go back to her (Churchianity). Dr. John Thomas wrote: “Those who hold Paul’s doctrine ought not to worship with a body that does not. This is holding with the hare and running with the hounds—a position of extraordinary difficulty. Does not such an one love the hounds better than the hare? When the hounds come upon the hare where will he be? No; if I agree with you in doctrine, I will forsake the assembling of myself with a body that opposes your doctrine, although it may require me to separate from the nearest and dearest. No good is effected by compromising the principles of the truth.”
Valerie Mello [in isolation, TN, USA] Comment added in 2017 Reply to Valerie
“… for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.”
The Roman Catholic doctrine of Transubstantiation means a "change of substance." They hold that during the Eucharistic portion of the Mass, the bread (a small round wafer called a host) and wine placed on the altar are substantially changed into the true and living flesh and blood of Christ! Eucharist, an old Latin word, also found in Greek, is eucharistia, meaning “thanksgiving.” It is the highest form of worship and thanksgiving for Christ’s sacrifice. The Sacrament of the Eucharist is to them the partaking of Holy Communion – the literal flesh and blood of Christ!
The Fourth Lateran Council in 1215 AD declared: “Jesus Christ, whose body and blood are truly contained in the sacrament of the altar under the species of bread and wine; the bread (changed) into His body by the divine power of transubstantiation, and the wine into the blood.” This was further confirmed by Pope Innocent III (1208 AD), the Second Council of Lyons (1274 AD), Pope Benedict XII (1341 AD), the Council of Constance (1415 AD), and the Council of Florence (1439 AD). They believed that when Christ took and bread and wine and pronounced over it “my body… my blood” (Luke 22:19,20; 1Cor 11:24-26), that something magical happened literally changing the bread and wine into his body and blood! Those who would not uphold this doctrine were tortured and killed as heretics.
The partaking of bread and wine was in remembrance of Christ, not in presence of Christ. It was Christ’s symbolical statement, or figure of speech, of himself (cf. Luke 6:41; 10:7,9; 15:5). They are metaphors wherein one thing is compared to another, but figuratively represented as that very thing (cf. Gen 49:9; Luke 13:31,32; John 6:53,54).
The power and strength of the Papacy was built on Pope Innocent II when he declared he was not the Vicar of Christ, but Vicar of God who stands between God and man. Such hubris! His claims were outlandish and calculating, nevertheless, they gave the Papacy immense power to deceive the many. This mystical action of Transubstantiation, or priestly sorcery, is still practiced today! It is idolatrous, ritualistic, cannibalistic witchcraft, and in no way reflects the Last Supper of Christ.
Valerie Mello [in isolation, TN, USA] Comment added in 2017 Reply to Valerie
17:5 There are doubtless many reasons why Babylon is presented as the one to be overthrown. One reason is that it was Babylon that was the power that took Israel into captivity and ended the kingdom of God on the earth in the past. No other nation actually ended the kingdom though others did take Israel captive.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2018 Reply to Peter
17:1 John is shown judgment here. However – Rev 21:10 – he is shown, along with judgment, the redeemed. What a lovely contrast.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2018 Reply to Peter
17:6 drunk with the blood would imply that they were so consumed with massacring believers that their minds were so confused that they did not appreciate what they were doing. This was certainly true of Saul of Tarsus who persecuted believers in the first century
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2019 Reply to Peter
A reader writes: “… I saw all your comments on Revelation 18, and your comments to a reply you received… It is sad when Brothers and Sisters get uncomfortable when the apostasy and it’s Harlot daughters are called out. I ask them now, how does Christ describe this system, sadly many do now know, as the Apocalypse remains a closed book, even though it has laid out the blessings and warnings of reading and understanding, and has more occurrences of any other book in scripture of ears to hear. Thank you once again for the comments you post on the website.”
My reply: We couldn’t describe it better than how Christ did. “Churchianity” is Babylonish apostasy, a “habitation of devils,” “the hold of every foul spirit,” “a cage of ever unclean and hateful birds” (v. 2). It still boggles my mind to think that there are Christadelphians who think that those who are a part of this apostasy may well be in the Kingdom!
Valerie Mello [in isolation, TN, USA] Comment added in 2019 Reply to Valerie
17:15as we have seen before in verse 2 the waters echoes both Babylon and Tyre. So we see the same association here.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2020 Reply to Peter
17:15 as we have seen before in verse 2 the waters echoes both Babylon and Tyre. So we see the same association here.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2020 Reply to Peter
stephen cox [Sedgley UK] Comment added in 2021 Reply to stephen
17:1We have seen on a previous occasion that sitting upon many waters quotes Jer 51:13 which speaks of Babylon’s power. Also, however the idea found in Eze 28:2 which speaks of Tyre is seen as well. We have drawn together the idea of a power associated with false worship with a nation that was a great trading power.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2021 Reply to Peter
17:1-2 Why would John be invited to see the judgment of the “great whore”? It cannot be out of some fleshly desire to see violence – as is seen in many films and television programmes that are shown.
Rather it is because John shared God’s hatred of everything that is evil and opposed to Him.
Does this reflect our views? Or do we like watching violence just for the sake of it?
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2022 Reply to Peter
17:1 Sometimes we see countries, especially if we live in the west, where there are despotic leaders and so think that our democratic societies are better. We must appreciate that whether a country has a despotic or democratic leadership the focus of the county is godless. God describes their behaviour as fornication
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2023 Reply to Peter
“And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.”
“In the Septuagint, pharmakeia always refers to sorcery. Importantly, this word is also used in the Septuagint of Isaiah 47 to describe the sorcery of Babylon. And the context of Revelation 18:23 doesn’t give any reason to that this word here is referring to anything other than sorcery either.”
https://bredenhof.ca/2021/12/14/pastoral-q-a-does-revelation-1823-refer-to-pharmaceutical-products/
Here is why pharmakeia is not limited to sorcery: The Hebrew word for sorcery, witchcraft, is Kashaph, # <3784>, “to whisper a spell, i.e. to incant, or practice magic; sorcerer, (use) witch(-craft).” 2Chron 33:6. In 2Kin 9:22; Isa 47:9,12; Mic 5:12; Nah 3:4, witchcraft, sorceries, practice magic are all Kesheph, # <3785>, “from # <3784>; magic:-sorcery, witchcraft.” The Hebrew word that expresses the idea of a pharmacy, druggist, is beit mirkachat. https://israelhebrew.com/2014/02/20/pharmacy-in-hebrew/ These are two very different words that express two very different meanings.
We see this difference also in the New Testament wherein in Acts 8:11, “sorceries” is mageia, # <3095>, and it is to literally “… practice magic, sorcery.” Contrast this with “sorceries,” pharmakeia, # <5331>, in Rev 18:23, “medicaton (“pharmacy”), i.e. (by extension) magic (Literal or figurative): sorcery, witchcraft.” Now this is where things get interesting!
In THE NEW THAYER’S GREEK-ENGLISH LEXICON, 1983, p. 649, it has for pharmakeia: “a. the use or administering of drugs… b. poisoning… c. sorcery, magical arts, often found in the connection of idolatry… the deceptions and seductions of idolatry, Rev xviii. 23.” (Underline added). Thus, it may well be that when the LXX was written, incidentally by Alexandrian Hebrew scholars, only one word was used to describe these different scenarios, and the context determined which was which. “The Septuagint: A Jerusalem certified Hebrew Bible translated by Jews and in full circulation in thousands of synagogues hundreds of years before Jesus rose from the dead.”
To conclude that pharmakeia is solely about magic, sorcery or witchcraft even as it pertains to Rev 18:23 is a big mistake despite its numerous supports by Biblical commentators. After all, who hasn’t heard of Big Pharma in our day?
Valerie Mello [in isolation, TN, USA] Comment added in 2023 Reply to Valerie
“… Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all… And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.”
The world will finally and decisively be rid of its destructive apostate religion, trade, and governmental beast systems that plagued humanity for thousands of years! Rome’s doctrines and scope of its mastery of deceptions, like a drug-induced spell, had and has profound implications on civilizations.
What is rarely addressed is how the Vatican uses its influence by various Papal statements that involve medical issues. “Global public health has several persistent challenges that require partnerships to properly solve. A global institution with the resources and influence of the Catholic Church, even though its health-related efforts have traditionally focused on the provision of direct medical care, could be more valuable partner for global public health than it traditionally has been… Additionally, the social teaching of the Church, particularly the preferential option for the poor, could help shift the enduring issue that global resources often flow where they are least needed. Further, dignity and solidarity could provide the conceptual grounding needed to invest more energy in capacity building in low-resource settings. Such efforts also require conversion within the Church itself, suggesting that deeper partnership could benefit both the Church and global public health.”
A Catholic Contribution to Global Public Health - PMC (nih.gov)/
Consider the following document from the Vatican: https://www.immunize.org/talking-about vaccines/vaticandocument.htm/
Pope considers getting vaccinated as an “Act Of Love.”
Pope Francis Says Getting Vaccinated Is 'An Act Of Love' : Coronavirus Updates : NPR
“Pope urges COVID inoculations, says vaccines are humanity’s friends.’”
On COVID vaccinations, Pope says health care is a ‘moral obligation.’”
Pope suggests that COVID vaccinations are 'moral obligation' : NPR/ He “denounced how people had been swayed by "baseless information" to refuse one of the most effective measures to save lives.” This is totally false and deceptive as evidenced from an FDA document!
https://austintexas.gov/edims/document.cfm?id=36492/
We are commanded to come out of Babylon’s immorality, or idolatry, but not just in a physical sense, but also in a spiritual sense (Rev 18:4). Those of us who claim to have come out of Roman Catholicism need to examine ourselves that our claims do not belie that claim. Is our heart still in Babylon? God’s judgment against the Babylonian-Beast System – the religious, political, economic system, will be swift and will be smashed to pieces (Dan 2:35).
Valerie Mello [in isolation, TN, USA] Comment added in 2023 Reply to Valerie
18:1 Isn’t is a great comfort the God has angels with “great power”? Man has such his opinion of his abilities.
If we ever doubt that God is more powerful than men with all their modern new technology just reflect on the fact that man cannot control the weather that can bring great devastation despite all the attempts of man to control it.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2024 Reply to Peter
17:2 In saying that the nations have been made drunk we see the way I which compliant men re easily drawn into sinful and wicked actions by those in authorities. Just as the drunk enjoys, it seems, becoming drunk the nations enjoy what elsewhere is called the “pleasures of sin”. Just as drunkenness occurs over a little time when involved in excessive drinking we can, similarly, be drawn into sinful activities by “dabbling” is dubious activities not realising how easy it is to get drawn deeply into those and related activates.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2025 Reply to Peter