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6 v. 7 - This commandment to bind the law into their hearts and to teach it to the children is emphasised a lot during these last months of the wilderness journey. There is a great deal of wisdom in making this a regular topic of conversation, as is suggested in this verse. Is it in your house? ch.4:9, 11:19, Ex.13:14, Ps.78:4-6, Eph.6:4.
Peter [UK] Comment added in 2001 Reply to Peter
7 v.1 reminds us that God will cast out our enemies even if they are greater than us. The way in which God fought for His people is well worth dwelling on. He will do the same for us as long as our pursuits are according to His will.
Peter [UK] Comment added in 2002 Reply to Peter
6:7 This verse amplifies the responsibility of bringing up children (both physical and spiritual) in the ways of the truth. The Hebrew translated 'teach them diligently' literally means to whet or make sharp as one would with a sword or a weapon. This shows clearly the preparing for battle, a battle of the mind, one which is unrelenting in our day and age. The soldier always kept his weapon sharp to preserve his life in the day of battle, but a sharp weapon was only one part of being prepared and of little use unless he was familiar with it (1Sam 17:38-39), ours is a daily battle. And as we read of the teaching and talking throughout the whole day, the soldier to preserve his life as well as being familiar with it also focused on practice, practice, practice. The writer to the Hebrews exhorts on the basis for growth Heb 5:13-14. These thoughts of sharpening remind us of Prov 27:17 and the clinical sharpness of the word Heb 4:12. Also to 'the whole armour of God' Eph 6:17. The instruction to fathers in this 6th chapter of Ephesians further enforces the instruction of the young Eph 6:4, the word 'nurture' in this 6th chapter lit means to educate, to train, to chasten (same word used 'chastening' Heb 12:5,7,8,11), the word 'admonition' lit means to call to attention by mild rebuke, or warning.
Pete Barrett [Milnsbridge UK] Comment added in 2009 Reply to Pete
Deut 7:1-3 We see here the nations that were to be destroyed and in v. 3 the commandment of God that there was to be no intermarriage between these nations and Israel. And why we know Israel disobeyed we do have some interesting exceptions. WE have Rahab a Canaanite, with have Ruth (though a Moabite there was a similar ban on marriage with that nation as well) we have Uriah the Hittite. So while the law was specific and without exception, it would seem faith conquered law.
Alex Browning [Kitchener-Waterloo] Comment added in 2020 Reply to Alex
Having God in our heart
"And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart" (Deut 6:6)
God wants His law to reside in our heart. How does something get into the heart? It's easy to hear something, but usually it goes into one ear and out the other. It's fairly easy to learn something so we remember it, but not often does it mean anything to us. Occasionally even our learning can become a skill - something that we can use in daily life. But this is something different. God wants His law to be a motivational driver for our actions, and that goes much further than something learned. The key to this is in v7:
"and thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up."
What's so special about this verse? God is providing us with the key to placing His words into our hearts.
1) teach them diligently unto thy children: The act of teaching small children is the single most effective way for us ourselves to become familiar with the subject matter. Children need the underlying meaning. They need for the text to be made interesting. It forces us to get intimately involved with what God is telling us. Once children get older they ask questions - often questions that never occurred to us. This forces us to see the law from new and fresh perspectives.
2) talk of them when thou sittest in thine house. Notice the detail in this statement. It's not just talking about God's laws, say at a religious gathering, but specifically when sitting in the house. It's the times of relaxation when all the chores are done and we're talking about the day, perhaps relaxing with a drink. In other words, our most intimate and relaxed time together with family, friends and loved ones. God is asking us to bring discussion of His laws into these special quiet times, which will have the result of making them close to our hearts too.
3) when thou walkest by the way. First of all, when walking we're at leisure to talk, and secondly, all external pressures and distractions are gone. As a result we can get more deeply into discussion than we could possibly at home or at a group gathering. Thirdly, we can only really be talking to one other, perhaps two at the most, because physically we're facing forward as we walk and it would be too hard to hear otherwise. Fourthly, walking side by side, matching one another's speed, adjusting our gait, going in the same direction, has a powerful psychological effect that has been studied and written about in many books on body language and communication. Because we're effectively stuck with that person for the duration of the journey, we have to soften our arguments; we have to listen. How often I fall into the trap of not listening properly and being too forceful putting my own point of view across. While walking this is virtually impossible. The result? Our bias is removed and we see God's law from the perspective of others, thus making it live even more.
4) when thou liest down. This is meditation at the end of the day. Having had a day full of the some or all of the above points one to three, we have plenty to think about. Recalling the conversations of the day in our head while lying in bed helps us form conclusions. Most importantly of all, we fall asleep with the word of God uppermost in our minds.
A kind of magic can now happen, only it is not magic, it is simply a result of the way God has made us. During the night, the thoughts, discussions, conclusions of the day move from the mind into the heart.
5) when thou risest up - and we awake with some small aspect of God's laws fastened securely in our heart, ready to motivate our thoughts and actions.
Rob de Jongh [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2014 Reply to Rob
6 v.6 There is a development and contrast in Proverbs regarding the heart. Proverbs 3:5 4:21 Which develop the principle laid out in the law here in Deuteronomy. Proverbs 6:14 The following passages show why we must have the law in our hearts - to drive out 'foolishness' Proverbs 12:20, 22:15, 23:7, 28:26
7 v.6 The Hebrew which is translated "special people" speaks of Israel being a special or peculiar treasure. This is a theme which runs through the Scriptures as shown in the following passages. Some versions may not consistently use the same English words but the Hebrew is the same in all the Old Testament places. Exodus 19:5 here Deuteronomy 14:2 26:18 1 Chronicles 29:3 Psalm 135:4 Ecclesiastes 2:8 Malachi 3:17 Titus 2:14 1 Peter 2:9. The lesson is clear. God's people are to recognise their special relationship with God and act accordingly.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2001 Reply to Peter
6:10 Another use of the words of Joseph (Genesis 50:24)
6:14 When Moses reminded the people that they should not go after other Gods they must have still had clear in their minds the matter of Balaam and the punishment that was meted out to those who were joined to Baal-Peor.
7:1 When Abraham learnt about the deliverance from Egypt (Gen 15) he was told that 'the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full' (Genesis 15:16). Their iniquity was not filled up - so the children of Israel had no reason to fear them. Just as God had brought them out of Egypt He would give them the land.
But notice that whereas Genesis 15:19-21) lists ten nations Deut 7:1 only lists seven. What happened to the other three?
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2002 Reply to Peter
6:3 God's commands are not given just to place a burden upon Israel. There were to be benefits which flowed from keeping them. Sadly the Pharisees made them a burden.
7:2 The command about not making covenants with the inhabitants of the land was re presented to Israel almost as soon as they entered the land under Joshua (Judg 2:2) - sadly over time the commandment was forgotten to Israel's hurt.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2003 Reply to Peter
6:9-12 The injunction to the nation to write the law is the basis for the way that the king was to write a copy of the law (Deut 17:18)
7:9 The faithful God is a further reassurance that the God who promised to give Israel the land will keep his word - it is this background which reinforces Paul's use (2Thess 3:3) of this idea.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2004 Reply to Peter
6:4-5 This command – which Israel really took to heart – but did not generally obey – re states what we commented about yesterday. God is seeking a unique relationship with us. This can only be found if He is the only one we worship.
7:1 In saying ‘hath cast out’ God is speaking of the future as if it has already happened. So reliable was the God that Israel worshipped that he could speak thus.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2006 Reply to Peter
6:12 ‘Lest ye forget’ – a reminder of the frailty of the human mind. Moses has already given this warning before – Deut 4:23
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2007 Reply to Peter
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2008 Reply to Peter
6:7-9 Whilst the law was to be in the ‘hearts’ of Israel they perverted these words and created rituals which had an outward show but did not, of themselves, change the heart and thinking of the Jew. Actually placing parts of the law on their doorposts and in phylacteries reduced the force of what God said It did nothing to cause the Jew to read the law and observe it.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2009 Reply to Peter
6:16 The comment about the historical event at ‘Massah’ harks back to the beginning of the wilderness journey where, after the complaint about the lack of water the place was named ‘Massah’ – Exo 17:7 – thus showing that events which were not part of the experience of people are used by God to teach the current generation Diving principles.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2010 Reply to Peter
6:25 So if Israel believed what God had taught them in His laws they would be ‘righteous’ – just like Abraham – Gen 15:6– unfortunately the Jews sought to ‘establish their own righteousness’ Rom 10:3.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2011 Reply to Peter
7:15 The assurance that God would take away from them their ‘diseases’ was to be fulfilled by the work of Jesus and his apostles – Matt 9:35, Matt 10:1
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2012 Reply to Peter
6:25 The way in which keeping the law is described as being “our righteousness” explains Jesus’ words – Matt 5:20 – when the disciples were encouraged to have a righteousness greater than the scribes and Pharisees.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2013 Reply to Peter
7:11 This list of nations that would be dispossessed is replicated in Josh 3:10 and, Josh 24:11 as Joshua is restating what God had promised to the nation at the border of the land just before Joshua led them into the land
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2014 Reply to Peter
6:6 Israel did not write God’s commandments in their heart. Rather they filled their hearts with their own sinful desires –Jer 17:1
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2015 Reply to Peter
6:4 The requirement to love God will “all thine heart” is the basis for what Philip says – Acts 8:37 – to the man who wanted to get baptised.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2016 Reply to Peter
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2017 Reply to Peter
6:4 The way in which God, through Moses, called upon Israel to serve with heart and soul was a key aspect of worship that was not understood by the Jews of Jesus’ day. Hence Jesus drew attention to this passage a number of times – foe example Matt 22:37. By contrast the new disciples in the first century are described as having one heart and one soul – Acts 4:32. And notice that, in Acts, having one heart and one soul caused the believers to do something. They loved their fellow believers as themselves and shared their possessions with them.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2018 Reply to Peter
6:13 The call to serve God is repeated - Deut 10:12, 13:4-. It is such an important commandment that it needed to be repeated. It is, likewise, something that we should remember and repeat to ourselves.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2019 Reply to Peter
7:9 there are only three places where scripture speak of a “thousand generations” here and 1Chron 16:15 and Psalm Psa 105:8. The Psalm and the Chronicles occasions are parallel passages. The Psalm is the words spoken at the time of the event sin the Chronicles account.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2021 Reply to Peter
6:14-16 the command that they should not tempt God is in the context of setting up other gods. So it is most appropriate that Jesus quotes verse 16 – Luke 4:12 – when he is considering demonstrating God’s power by casting himself off the pinnacle of the temple. It would have been the same as making himself God.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2022 Reply to Peter
7:26 The mention of the “cursed thing” is given as a worked example in the time of Joshua with respect to Achan. Of the eleven times that the accursed thing is mentioned in the Old Testament 8 of them are in Joshua. The first is Josh 7:1
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2023 Reply to Peter
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2024 Reply to Peter
Nick Kendall [In Isolation] Comment added in 2016 Reply to Nick
Nick Kendall [In Isolation] Comment added in 2017 Reply to Nick
7:2,3,4,5,6,11,12,13,14,15,16,25 - perhaps it seems harsh that the Israelites were to kill all peoples that God delivered into their hand but the reasoning is clearly stated in v4, etc. If the Israelites followed God's commands He would bless them. In Josh 9:14,15,22,23,24,25,26,27 we read how the Gibeonites were spared.
Charles Link, Jr. [Moorestown, (NJ, USA)] Comment added in 2006 Reply to Charles
Deut 6:4-5;Mark 12:28-31. Deut 6:5;Luke 10:25-28. Deut 6:13;Matt 4:10;Luke 4:8. Deut 6:16;Matt 4:7;Luke 4:12.
Charles Link, Jr. [Moorestown, (NJ, USA)] Comment added in 2009 Reply to Charles
Deut 6:5-10 - Perhaps Christ is an echo of this - Christ loved and obeyed God (and loved his neighbour) more than any other man; he fulfilled the law which was written on his pure heart; he continues to teach his true children; he was bound to a cross and obediently fulfilled the afore written word with his pierced hands and thorn crowned head so that by his sacrificial blood he might provide the Passover door (from bondage to sin and death) to the ultimate promised land upon his return.
Deut 7:1-2 - this lists the 7 nations that God would prophetically deliver into Israel's hand (Josh 24:11). Gen 15:18-21 - lists 10 nations whose land Abram's descendants would be given (not 7) and the first three were the Kenites (Judg 1:16;1Chron 2:55;Jer 35:1-19), the Kenizzites (Num 32:12), and the Kadmonites [(6935) they were Oriental i.e. from the East and may be connected with Matt 2:1] were perhaps not wicked as were the other nations.
Charles Link, Jr. [Moorestown, (NJ, USA)] Comment added in 2009 Reply to Charles
As Michael Parry noted in his above 2009 comments, the true believer does not ritualize with phylacteries. The true believer has God's instruction sealed in his heart and mind, so that his faith might guide his works (arms) and where he walks (Deut 6:4-8;Job 33:16 KJV;Rev 7:3-4;James 2:17;Deut 10:16;Deut 30:6;Eze 11:19;Eze 36:24-28;Rom 2:29).
Charles Link, Jr. [Moorestown, (NJ, USA)] Comment added in 2014 Reply to Charles
The state of spiritual Israel (true followers of Jesus) mirrors that of natural Israel (7:6,7).
It is emphasized that God is a unity (6:4), followed by the greatest commandment of all (6:5; Matt 22:37,38).
The command to the Israelites not to follow other gods (6:14) also applies to those in Christ. In this modern age, these gods can take many forms. In brief, they are the objects, ideas, or pursuits that detract from worshipping Yahweh (1John 2:16).
Michael Parry [Montreal (Can)] Comment added in 2004 Reply to Michael
6:8 Small black leather boxes called phylacteries (Heb. tefillin) are worn by religious Jewish men during morning-prayer services today. The boxes contain scrolls of parchment on which written texts remind the wearer of Yahweh's bringing the Children of Israel out of Egypt.
6:9 Each Jewish home has a mezuzah (Hebrew for doorpost) affixed to the right side of the front door to the house. The mezuzah is a decorative case which contains a rolled-up parchment on which certain scriptures are written in permanent black ink by qualified scribes. The written scriptures are Deut 6:4-9; and Deut 11:13-21.
The true believer in Christ does not wear such trappings, but recalls scripture, when appropriate, for understanding or for action.
Michael Parry [Montreal (Can)] Comment added in 2008 Reply to Michael
6:4 Jews lay great stress on this verse. It is one of the four passages that are written on their phylacteries. Moreover, devout Jews have recited it twice per day, from Old Testament times until today. It is burned in their memory that Yahweh, the God of Israel, is one divine person. Jesus reiterates this most important statement in Mark 12:29.
The emphasis on this verse is to dissuade any kind of polytheism or pantheism.
But, Christendom, in the fourth century AD, decided that the God of Heaven has three entities: God; Jesus; and the Holy Spirit. This ludicrous idea is nothing more than polytheism which is contrary to any scriptural understanding of Yahweh; His Son; and the power by which His will is accomplished.
7:6 There are devoutly religious Jews today. But, they are in the minority. Many Jews today are either not religious, or have joined synagogues that are so loosey-goosey in their religious adherence that you might wonder where you are. They follow worldly trends and fashions and rationalise their conduct and beliefs in humanistic terms. There is much intermarriage between Jews and non-Jews. They want to be part of the world and accepted by the world, just like the Jews who wanted a king (1Sam 8:5).
Yahweh must be saddened by the refusal of His people to love Him. At some point, His sadness will turn to anger and much hurt will befall His people. This has been the pattern throughout history.
Michael Parry [Montreal (Can)] Comment added in 2009 Reply to Michael
RIGHT AND GOOD
Because they are so simple in a profound chapter, it is easy to glance over them and not even realise they are there. Yet it does us well to stop and think about what it means to do what is right and good. Moses said to Israel, "Do what is right and good in the LORD's sight, so that it may go well with you and you may go in and take over the good land that the LORD God promised on oath to your forefathers, thrusting out all you enemies before you as the LORD said." (Deut 6:18-19)
Doing what is right and good. There is only one standard of right and that standard is God's right. The word 'right' comes from a word meaning straight. We must not stray from God's laws so we need to know them in order to keep them.
Living right means living legally. But living right is not enough. The Pharisees lived right, but they did not always do good. To live in a good way puts our legalism into perspective. It takes the knowledge of our minds and places the matter at our heart. Doing good takes us from doing right because we are commanded to, to doing right because we love God and want to do what is best. We cannot have one without the other.
So let us adjust our minds and our hearts in order that we will follow through doing what is right and good in the Lord's sight.
Robert Prins [Auckland - Pakuranga - (NZ)] Comment added in 2007 Reply to Robert
7:22 I would like to see a reconciliation between the divine instruction to 'utterly destroy' the inhabitants of the land, and this verse.
Gordon Reed [West Birmingham England] Comment added in 2011 Reply to Gordon
The words of God must be "in thine heart" (Deut 6:6). The Law was to be a link between Heaven and earth. God's people should "live" the law. It had to be internalised. So the law of Christ is to us.
David Simpson [Worcester (UK)] Comment added in 2004 Reply to David
The words of God must be in thine heart (Deut 6:6). The Law was to be a link between Heaven and earth. God's people should live the law. It had to be internalised. So the law of Christ is to us.
David Simpson [Worcester (UK)] Comment added in 2004 Reply to David
7:5 The removal of the alters, images, and everything that had been enlisted in the service, or might tend to perpetuate the remembrances of Canaanite idolatry, was likewise highly expedient for preserving the Children of Israel from all risk of contamination.
John Wilson [Toronto West (Can)] Comment added in 2004 Reply to John
6:7 As we read a section of scripture such as this verse, we can not help but reflect how richly we were blessed as children to be in a home where these things were continually being spoken of.: This has to have been the greatest thing our parents did for us. May we appreciate this as we raise our children and grandchildren.
John Wilson [Toronto West (Can)] Comment added in 2005 Reply to John
7:6 They had been chosen to execute the important purposes of God's providence. Their selection to this high destiny was neither on account of their great numbers, nor because of their extra ordinary merits or great conduct. It was of course in consequence of the covenant made to their father Abraham, and passed through Isaac and Jacob. The reasons that led to that special act were such as tended not only to vindicate God's wisdom, but to illustrate His glory in diffusing the most precious blessings to mankind.
John Wilson [Toronto West (Can)] Comment added in 2006 Reply to John
7:15 Also note: Exo 15:26. Besides those with which Pharaoh and his peoples were stricken with, Egypt has always been dreadfully scourged with diseases. The testimony of Moses is confirmed by both historians and modern writers, who tell us that Egypt has some diseases which are very malignant, such as ophthalmia. dysentery, and smallpox.
John Wilson [Toronto West (Can)] Comment added in 2007 Reply to John
v. 1-11 - I don't suppose any of us read these words without a feeling of jealous indignation, that Solomon should have, as it were, the divine authority to behave in this outrageously selfish way just that we might have on record words which tell us how vain this type of pursuit is! Nevertheless, if we can throw aside our jealousy, we do come to realise that there is a chance here for those who are so minded to learn without the need to experience these things for themselves, and so become mature and wise sooner in life than would otherwise have been possible. Can you do it? Contrast v. 11 with Ex.39:43 and add 1John 2:16-17.
Peter [UK] Comment added in 2001 Reply to Peter
v.14 - the event that happeneth to them all is surely death (Psa.49:10). The wise and the foolish both go the same way. The difference is whether they stay there. This passage also reminds us of the sentiments of ch.9:11 - time and chance refers also to finite life and inevitable death, but as well as that to the opportunities. We each have the same opportunities. It is up to us to use those wisely.
Peter [UK] Comment added in 2002 Reply to Peter
v.7 The assurance that the king would make servants of the young men and women in Israel was seen to be fulfilled in Solomon who even said that he had done such a thing. 1 Samuel 8:16
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2001 Reply to Peter
In more details we see that in a number of ways Solomon violated the requirements of the law in his lifestyle
2:5 | all kinds of fruits | Deut 22:9 |
2:7 | servants and maidens | 1Sam 8:16 |
2:8 | silver and gold | Deut 17:17 |
2:8 | peculiar treasure <05459> | Exo 19:5 |
Solomon , in using this language, is showing how he systematically violated the commands of God.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2002 Reply to Peter
:18 One hopes that our feelings towards our material wealth are not driven solely by the fact that we will leave them all behind!
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2003 Reply to Peter
2:1 Solomon proved his conclusions by experience. Are we willing to learn from the experiences of others or do we need to make the same mistakes ourselves before we learn?
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2004 Reply to Peter
2:3 all the days’ quotes Deut 12:1. The repeated use in Ecc 5:18, 6:12, 9:9 – shows that life is a ‘wilderness journey’ with God working in the lives of those who care to notice His acts.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2006 Reply to Peter
2:3 We should not think that it is a good idea to try out the things of the world so that we can conclude that they are vanity. We should be able to learn from the errors of others rather than have to imitate their mistakes.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2007 Reply to Peter
2:17 That Solomon ‘hated life’ seems to be an extreme way of speaking but Jesus seems to catch the same idea – Luke 14:26
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2008 Reply to Peter
2:14 The light / dark motif is found throughout Scripture, starting in Gen 1:4-5- and forms a major element of Jesus’ teaching – Luke 1:79, John 8:12
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2009 Reply to Peter
2:11-12 After all his acquisitions Solomon looked at it and concluded – it was worthless. This simple point is a powerful warning to each and every one of us.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2010 Reply to Peter
2:10 Solomon acquired whatever his eye desired. However he has already told us in Ecc 1:8 that the eye is never satisfied. Have we learnt the lesson that Solomon is teaching us?
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2011 Reply to Peter
2:4-11 Solomon had riches beyond measure and the ability to do whatever he pleased. He lists the things he did and concludes that it was all vanity. Truly the eye is not satisfied with seeing Ecc 1:8
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2012 Reply to Peter
2:2 The wise man’s comments and question about mirth and laughter are so true, in the big scale of things. They may fulfil for a moment. They may distract for a short while. We may, by immersing ourselves in these characteristics, forget for a short while the sad dilemma human beings are in. However reality always kicks in again. This is not to decry laughing and mirth. Rather it is to place it in context. God’s offer of eternal salvation can give pleasure even when the realities of man’s dilemma are realised. Nay maybe an appreciation of God’s offer of salvation is more gladdening when one appreciates man’s futile position. The same is not true of mirth and laughter.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2013 Reply to Peter
2:20 The “hating life” which Solomon strove for was a desire to recognise the valueless of the material things of this life. An attitude that we should have. That Solomon “went about to …” is because it is hard to treat the material things of this life as of little value.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2014 Reply to Peter
2:18 “labour” to produce things that others will inherit is not, of itself, hateful. It is only hateful if that is all one has in life. Those who believe in Jesus have a better hope. That which is left behind is in reality of little value.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2015 Reply to Peter
2:1 When Solomon said “in [his] heart” we see he uses a similar phrase in 2:15. So we see a contrast. Here Solomon speaks of trying everything this world offers. In verse 15 he realises that doing this is of no value.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2016 Reply to Peter
2:24 The book of Ecclesiastes could be taken as presenting life as quite a depressing environment. However there are five times – Ecclesiastes Ecc 2:24, 3:13, 5:18, 8:15, 9:7 – where the inspired preacher advises that God has given, amongst other things, food and drink to be enjoyed in the labour of our lives.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2017 Reply to Peter
Summary of Ecclesiastes 2
2:1-11 I will “prove” myself by indulging in many activities
And was great, not withholding form myself anything I wanted
But then I realised it was all empty and pointless
2:12-17 And I realised that wisdom surpasses folly
But that the wise and the fools die
So everything I had done I hated because it was grievous
2:18-23 I realised that whatever material things I gained would be left to others when I died
And I have no control over how they will use them
So material acquisitions are vanity – empty
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2018 Reply to Peter
2:11 Solomon had laboured. However he concluded that it was all pointless. Well it was if he could not see God at work in his life. Remember the labour in the field that Adam had to undertake was for his benefit – Gen 3:17.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2019 Reply to Peter
2:2-3 the western society in which many of us live sees “laughter” as the solution to everything. Indeed people do things “for a laugh”. Hopefully our lives are more focussed than that!
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2020 Reply to Peter
2:26 if we truly believe that the scripture says here we will not complain about things that happen in our lives. Complaining demonstrates that we do not actually believe that God gives us what is good for us.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2021 Reply to Peter
2:3-6 Adam was condemned to eat of the ground “all the days” of his life Gen 3:17) Solomon pondered all the things he did. He was a gardener. He made vineyards, made gardens to provide fruit (2:4-5). It was so he would see what men did “all the days of their life” ( 2:3) The recurring “all the days" that we will come across as we read Ecclesiastes reinforces the connection with the curse on the ground because of Adam’s sin. Whilst we may not labour in the field we do labour to eat bread. We must exercise our minds on the way God is working with us to bring us to Christ
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2022 Reply to Peter
2:1 The pleasures of this life are fleeting. We all, if we are honest, know this to be true. The trouble is that we are never satisfied as we have already read – Ecc 1:8
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2023 Reply to Peter
2:1-3 Maybe we have all tried it. Living a life designed to satisfy the flesh. But on reflection it is seen for what it is – emptiness. No lasting joy. When the bright lights are turned off and the cold light of day comes to waken us what lasting things have we got?
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2024 Reply to Peter
1. Ecc 2:14-16 - worldy wisdom and worldly foolishness both result in death.
2. Ecc 2:26 - (NIV) - "To the man who pleases him, God gives wisdom, knowledge and happiness, but to the sinner he gives the task of gathering up and storing wealth to hand it over to the one who pleases God. This too is meaningless, a chasing after the wind." - Solomon recognized that while earthly wisdom and wealth was empty meaningless and unsatisfying, pleasing God was not an empty meaningless unhappy pursuit.
Charles Link, Jr. [Moorestown, (NJ, USA)] Comment added in 2013 Reply to Charles
Ecc 2:14
"The wise man's eyes (are) in his head; but the fool walketh in darkness: and I myself perceived also that one event happeneth to them all."
The fool is one who is morally bankrupt and mentally deficient, not because he cannot learn, but because he won't learn. Eyes speak of intelligence (cf. John 11:9-10; Eph 1:18), so whether wise or fool, death happens to them all.
Bible skeptics, critics, scoffers, and atheists frequently use this verse, which seems to deny there is life after death. Atheists love it because it seems to confirm their views; Hedonists love it because it seems to endorse a rather Epicurean lifestyle. What they fail to notice is that Ecclesiastes goes beyond man's natural powers of observation and reason.
What Solomon is really saying in this verse has nothing to do with the physical eyes. The wise man's physical eyes are in the same place as the fool's eyes, but a wise man can foresee in his mind's eye some of the results of what he may contemplate on doing and avoid them. Many have experienced this to be true. There is an advantage to walking in the light versus stumbling in the darkness (v. 13).
In the book, Ethics Of The Fathers by Rabbi Yochanan ben Zakai, he asks this question: "What is the proper path for man to cleave to?" The answer is to "fear sin." "The righteous individual foresees the consequences of his deeds and instant gratifications of sin cannot entice he who fears its deeper repercussions." This is exactly what Solomon touched on!
Rabbi Shlomo Yizchaki (1040-1105 AD), an outstanding Biblical scholar during the Middle Ages explains that the Hebrew word b'rosho should not have been translated "in his head," but "in its head," -that is, "the wise man is one who, in everything he does, looks into the beginning (head) of the deed to see its end."
Valerie Mello [in isolation, TN, USA] Comment added in 2014 Reply to Valerie
The Preacher faces mortality and finds that death is no respecter of persons. The same fate awaits both the wise and the foolish (v.16). What a man has built up is left for someone else (v.18). He considers all this meaningless. And so it is if there is no continuance of life. But that has been promised through the Lord Jesus (Rom 6:22; Titus 3:7).
Michael Parry [Montreal (Can)] Comment added in 2004 Reply to Michael
Vs.13,14 The preacher is depressed by the prospect of death which applies equally to both to the wise and foolish. Nevertheless, he concedes that wisdom is better than foolishness, as it gives light to illuminate one’s path.
Michael Parry [Montreal (Can)] Comment added in 2008 Reply to Michael
V.24 This is misleading in English. The phrase nothing better promotes what follows. In Hebrew, that phrase says: ayn tov which means it is not good. Therefore, the real sense of this passage is that: it is not good to engage in eating and drinking and enjoying one‘s work. This practice is at the expense of worshipping God. That is what people were doing in Noah’s day before the flood. And that is what people are now doing before Jesus returns (Matt 24:37-39).
Michael Parry [Montreal (Can)] Comment added in 2009 Reply to Michael
THE BEST FROM LIFE
There is only one way to get the most out of life. Solomon explores every possibility he can think of. His aim was to see if he could find satisfaction and the meaning of life away from God, but he discovered that everything was meaningless without God. The words he uses to describe life without God are: meaningless, a chasing after wind, hateful, grievous, despairing, a great misfortune, pain and grief.
Solomon had it all. He could try everything. He could do what he liked, and he still came to the conclusion that without God, life is nothing. In one of his conclusions he says, "For without him (God), who can eat or find enjoyment?" (Ecc 2:25)
Oh yes, it always looks greener on the other side of the fence. It may be that as a Christian we can look at those who are not in Christ and become envious of their lavish lifestyle and the things that they do, but according to Solomon, it is only with God that we will find real enjoyment of the life we are given. I have also found that to be true for myself. I have had nothing like the experience of Solomon, but I know that the more of my life I give to God, the happier, more satisfied and more at peace I feel.
God is the provider of all good things, and if our enjoyment does not come from him then it will be at best second grade. Let's insist on nothing but the best as we aim to get the most out of life. With God it will be nothing but the best.
Robert Prins [Auckland - Pakuranga - (NZ)] Comment added in 2004 Reply to Robert
Solomon tells us in Ecc 2:1-11, that he set out to try everything, to get everything, and to learn everything - and it all turned out to empty and useless. God had given him the wisdom to be able to see what motivated other people, and he deduced that it all gets you nowhere. He realised that he would leave everything behind when he died. There’s a big lesson here for all of us – although we have what possibly Solomon didn't have – that is a hope of living for ever in Christ’s kingdom. That’s REAL motivation, isn't it?
David Simpson [Worcester (UK)] Comment added in 2005 Reply to David
V.13-23 "Wisdom excelleth folly" V.13-14 yet the one event, death, befalls both. V.14-16 and that thus the wealth acquired by the wise man's labour may descend to a fool that hath not laboured. V.18-21 Therefore, all his labour is vanity. V.22-23
John Wilson [Toronto West (Can)] Comment added in 2004 Reply to John
v. 5 - Pilate's words - 'Behold the man' - were quite telling. They reflect John's words in ch.1:29, and the words of Isaiah 40:9, but mostly they give the people the final opportunity to see Jesus for what he really is and repent, Heb.12:2, but their reaction was contrary. (John 19:6)
Peter [UK] Comment added in 2001 Reply to Peter
Awaiting re-birth
Jesus had said to Nicodemus "unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God". (3:3) Have you ever wondered what implications Nicodemus would have drawn from that statement? If someone is to be born again, of necessity they must die first. This is implied in the first part of Nicodemus' question in 3:4 "can he enter a second time into the womb?". So Nicodemus, more than any other, may have been quietly waiting to see whether Jesus would die and be raised again.
This would explain why it is him in particular who brought a hundred pounds of myrrh and aloes, so that when he awoke Jesus would smell a pleasing, Kingly odour. Myrrh was an expensive perfume (see Exo 30:23, Est 2:12, Song 3:6) certainly not associated with death in scripture. In Psa 45 the writer says Prophetically: "My heart is overflowing with a good theme concerning the King.. your God has anointed you with the oil of gladness, all your garments are scented with Myrrh and Aloes and Cassia". Hardly a burial song, but rather one of joy. Nicodemus, by his actions in supplying these particular perfumes, finally showed his faith in what Jesus had told him.
Rob de Jongh [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2009 Reply to Rob
The Jews and gentiles joined forces to condemn Jesus. However he was declared fault free by both Pilate [18:38 19:4,6] and Herod [Luke 23:15]. Whereas the witnesses against Jesus could not agree [Mark 14:59] thus violating the command [Deuteronomy 17:6] Jesus was vindicated by two witnesses.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2001 Reply to Peter
18:38 19:4 :6 Here we have the threefold assertion by Pilate that Jesus was innocent. During his life the Jews had never been able to convince him of sin. He truly was a Passover lamb without blemish.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2002 Reply to Peter
:4 In saying 'Pilate went forth' we realise what we learn elsewhere (John 18:28) that the Jewish leaders were hypocrites. They were more concerned with ceremonial cleanness that righteous judgement.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2003 Reply to Peter
19:9 When we read that Pilate went into the judgment hall we have to conclude that he took Jesus with him as he had just brought him forth to the people ( 19:5) - So Pilate was not willing to enter into discussion with Jesus in public view of the Jews. He wanted to free Jesus but feared the people.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2004 Reply to Peter
19:7 Having failed to obtain Jesus death on the trumped up charge of treason against Rome the Jews now change tack and invoke their own religious laws.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2006 Reply to Peter
19:10-11 Jesus’ words seem to have caused Pilate to wish to release Jesus. There was another reason. His wife had been troubled with a dream that night – Matt 27:19. So maybe we can conclude that the events we are reading about in these verses was immediately after Pilate’s wife had sent her message to him.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2007 Reply to Peter
19:8 Pilate was ‘the more afraid’ because he knew that there was no valid charge against Jesus and yet, because he feared the Jews, he could not let Jesus go. So we see that both the Jewish leaders were compromised by their attitude and so was Pilate.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2008 Reply to Peter
19:1 The Bible narrative is not very descriptive of the physical punishment that Jesus endured before his crucifixion. There is more details about the physical details of the trials and crucifixion of Jesus in the Old Testament than there is in the New Testament. There is a powerful reason for this. Jesus’ sacrifice was his life of service which culminated in his death. It was not just his death. Many people have died terrible deaths for different causes. But no one except the lord gave his whole life for a cause.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2009 Reply to Peter
19:10-11 The clear thinking of Jesus when confronted by Pilate – Jesus realised that God was in control – is a wonderful example for us to follow. We might say |God is in control in our lives when things are going well but how do we respond in times of difficulties?
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2010 Reply to Peter
19:20 In using the phrase ‘nigh unto the city’ we are being reminded of the law of Moses Deut 21:3 – which dealt with the way in which elders in a city were to dissociate themselves, if innocent, from the death of a person found in the fields. Pilate, in washing his hands, - Matt 27:24 – further reinforces this link as can be seen in Deut 21:6. Of course this does not make him guiltless but highlighted to the Jews the matter of guilt and innocence over the death of a man.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2011 Reply to Peter
19:42 In telling us that they ‘laid Jesus’ in a tomb we see an echo of the time of his birth – Luke 2:7
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2012 Reply to Peter
Summary Of John
19:1-18 Jesus before Pilate
19:19-37 Jesus crucified
19:38-42 Nicodemus buried Jesus
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2013 Reply to Peter
19:5 Pilate’s invitation “behold the man” introduces a man who is a stark contrast to the first human king of Israel whom Samuel was invited to “behold” – 1Sam 9:17. The ineffective king (Saul) can be contrasted with the faithful king (Jesus) here before the crowd.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2014 Reply to Peter
19:14 Pilate was determined to release Jesus. Three times he pronounced him innocent. He now goes beyond “behold the man – verse :5– to introduce Jesus to them saying “behold your king”. But to no avail because Jesus was to die because of God’s determinate counsel – Acts 2:23.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2015 Reply to Peter
19:11 Jesus teaching to Pilate about who was in control is a strong lesson for us. Do we believe that God has a plan and that plan includes you and I? If so then we should not be troubled about the events that are coming on the earth or in our lives. We may have problems but it is clear that, as in Jesus’ case, God is in control.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2016 Reply to Peter
19:39 There are a number of occasions in John’s gospel when we learn that some of the Jewish leaders believed on Jesus. We see this in 12:11,42 and possibly even a hint in 7:50-51 and 3:2
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2017 Reply to Peter
19:4 The use of the word “again” indicates that Jesus has already pronounced his verdict on Jesus – “I find no fault in him”.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2018 Reply to Peter
19:35 The one that saw and bare record is John, the human author of the gospel. The statement that “and his record is true” is the Holy Spirit’s authentication of John’s eyewitness record.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2019 Reply to Peter
19:34 David had spoken of this event – 2Sam 23:7. Notice the precision of David’s words. He speaks of a spear as does John and he was pierced.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2020 Reply to Peter
19:31 How sad and hypocritical. In order that the Law of Moses be kept they wanted the removal of the body of the man they had murdered from the cross!
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2021 Reply to Peter
19:6 we should remember this this is the third time that Pilate has said that he could not find fault with Jesus. The other two areJohn 18:38 and John 19:66. The Jews had not been able to find fault with Jesus with their “difficult” questions recorded in Matthew 21;22. So both Jew and gentile acknowledge that Jesus is blameless.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2022 Reply to Peter
19:20 Here is one occasion of a number when we are clearly told that something was said or written in “Hebrew”. It is important that we recognise that Hebrew was one of the languages of the day rather than Jesus speaking in Aramaic which many commentators say was the language Jesus and other spoke. We never read of Aramaic being written down to provide the words on the cross in different languages. If Aramaic was one of the languages commonly used then we could expect one of the languages of the writing on the cross to be Aramaic.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2023 Reply to Peter
19:17 Apparently it was normal practice that the one being crucified carried their own cross. However John’s mention is to draw our attention to the narrative associated with the offering of Isaac who carried the wood for the sacrifice – Gen 22:6.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2024 Reply to Peter
“And Pilot wrote a title and put it on the cross. And the writing was, JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS.”
The Greek word for "king" according to Strong’s # <935>is basileus, and commonly translated as such, but the original word for “king” was wanax, meaning "high king," or "overlord."
“Jesus of Nazareth the King of the Jews” originally in the ancient Greek read: "Ieous Nazoraios Basilius Ioudaios," but the Latin Vulgate reads, "Iesus Nazerenus Rex Iudaeorum." This is usually abbreviated INRI as on all statues and imagery because there was no J. The Greek translation is: “Do not inscribe ‘the monarch {basileus} of the Judeans’ {Ioudaios}, but that he himself said ‘I am monarch {basileus} of the Judeans {Ioudaios).’ No Bible prior to the 18th century referred to Yahshua as a “Jew”!
The Mycenaean period of Greece lasted from 1600-1100 B.C. It was the height of the Bronze Age Greece - the pinnacle of Greek culture, before the onset of the Dark Ages, 1100-800 BC. Wanax was ascribed to a human “lord,” and his underlings (like dukes) each had the title of basileus. However, after 1100 BC, Egalitarianism set in, a trend that favored equality in fundamental worth or social status for all the people, so wanax was dropped and basileus survived.
Yahshua was not Basileus of the Jews; he is Wanax of the Yahudahites, commonly translated Judeans. Luke 3:36 clearly reveals that Yahshua did not come from the Ashkenazi line of which the majority of today's Jews come from, who at the same time claim to be direct descendants of David and Abraham!
Valerie Mello [in isolation, TN, USA] Comment added in 2016 Reply to Valerie
“Pilate then went out unto them, and said, What accusation bring ye against this man?”
Accusation is the Greek word kategoria, # <2724>, a “criminal charge.” We get our English word, category from kategoria.
The Judahites had no authority to administer the death penalty, so they went to Pilate who was the Roman governor over the region of Judea. What Pilate wanted to know when he asked this question was what Yahshua's crime was against humanity worthy of death. Was he a thief, a murderer?
Pilate found no accusation leveled against Christ worthy of death (v. 4; Luke 23:4). Though Pilate was a cruel and ruthless man, he wasn’t stupid and could see through their motives.
When the accusations leveled against Christ did not work, the Judahites blatantly lied that he was an insurrectionist, perverting the nation, forbidding to pay taxes to Caesar, and made himself out to be king of the Judahites. Pilate, still reluctant to pass the death penalty, on learning that Jesus was from Galilee, sent him to Herod, which was under his jurisdiction.
We see in this scene the hysterical hate of the Judahites; the panicky fear of Pilate set against the serene majesty and calm of Yahshua the Messiah. It seems odd for the victim to be calm and the accusers and executioner to be frenzied. Yet, Yahshua knew and we know he had to die and bear in his own body our sins on a tree (cf. Deut 21:22,23; Gal 3:13).
Pilate got it right; there was no fault to be found in Christ; there was no category worthy of the death sentence. The Judahites, determined to have him put to death, simply created one.
Valerie Mello [in isolation, TN, USA] Comment added in 2016 Reply to Valerie
The Jews cried: We have no king but Caesar (v.15). This is not the first time that they had rejected their true king. In Samuel's day they wished to have a human king so they could be like the nations around them. In doing so, they rejected God as their king (1Sam 8:5-7). Now they had rejected God's Son as king.
Michael Parry [Montreal (Can)] Comment added in 2004 Reply to Michael
Some believe that sin is sin is sin in the sight of Yahweh. They suggest that Yahweh does not distinguish between what we might consider small or large sins. However, Jesus does suggest degrees of sin when He uses the comparative adjective greater (Gr. meizon) in v.11.
Michael Parry [Montreal (Can)] Comment added in 2007 Reply to Michael
V.5 The word thorns is translated from the Greek akanthinos. It is likely then that the crown was made of the acanthus. This plant, often called bears’ foot, has large green leaves and is prickly but not thorny. A crown of green acanthus leaves with prickles would act as a mock laurel leaf crown for victors. When struck on the crown the prickles would dig into the head (Matt 27:30).
Michael Parry [Montreal (Can)] Comment added in 2009 Reply to Michael
THE SIGN
"Pilate had a notice prepared and fastened to the cross. It read: JESUS OF NAZARETH, THE KING OF THE JEWS. Many of the Jews read this sign, for the place where Jesus was crucified was near the city, and the sign was written in Aramaic, Latin and Greek. The chief priests protested to Pilate, 'Do not write, "The King of the Jews," but that this man claimed to be king of the Jews.'
Pilate answered, 'What I have written, I have written.'" (John 19 v 19 - 22)
The sign, written by Pilate and no doubt inspired by God, was written in languages that everyone could understand. It was written in Aramaic, the language of religion. It was written in Latin, the language of law and order. And it was written in Greek, the language of culture. It was written for you and me - no matter who we are, so that no matter what language we speak or whatever our natural inclinations are, the sign is there for us. There is no mistaking it. This is not just a man who said he was the King of the Jews. The sign says it all and we have no choice but to read it in our own language and no excuse for not understanding. "Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews." Read it. Believe it.
Robert Prins [Auckland - Pakuranga - (NZ)] Comment added in 2002 Reply to Robert
BEHOLD YOUR KING!
"Behold your King!" (John 19:14). Pilate wanted the Jews to take a good look at the man who claimed to be the King of the Jews. Isaiah tells us exactly what he looked like:"He had no form or majesty that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him." (Isa 53:2).
Looking at Jesus, they saw a tired, beaten man, a man with blood flowing down his face from the crown of thorns he wore, a man whose back was broken open in pain from a flogging. They saw a broken man, mocked, wearing a purple robe and a crown of thorns. Surely one look at this man showed that he was not a threat. One look at him should have aroused pity.
But in his command to "Behold your King!", I wonder if Pilate actually wanted the Jews to see more than the pathetic man in front of him. Pilate saw the Son of God and the King of the Jews, despite Jesus' physical appearance. He knew the Jews could also see the same, but that they would refuse to admit it.
"Behold your King!"Yes, my King and your King. Behold the Saviour of the world; my Saviour and your Saviour.
I like to look away when I read the trial and crucifixion of Jesus, but the command is there: "Behold your King!" Look at him. Honour him. Respect him. Love him.
Robert Prins [Auckland - Pakuranga - (NZ)] Comment added in 2021 Reply to Robert
Clothes are a very interesting study. Back in Matt 26:65 the High Priest tore his clothes, while trying Jesus. This was completely against God’s law in Lev 21:10. Then in today’s chapter, John 19:23 Jesus’ coat is like the High Priest’s ephod – without seam. Is this telling us that Jesus was High Priest designate? Then in John 20:6,7 Jesus’ grave-clothes are seen folded up and left in the tomb. God obviously made Jesus new clothes when he was resurrected. If clothes symbolise that which covers our humanity, or sin (see Gen 3:21), how fitting it was that Jesus’ grave-clothes should be left in mother earth. He was now “without sin, unto salvation” (Heb 9:28).
David Simpson [Worcester (UK)] Comment added in 2007 Reply to David
V.38-42 This is the third time that John mentions Nicodemus, in his account of the gospel record. The record of Nicodemus teaches much about the power of example. It is so much easier to tread a difficult path when you see someone on it ahead of you. Would Nicodemus have mustered the courage to be seen at Golgotha, if he hadn't had Joseph of Arimathea to stand with and talk to? A courageous witness for the Truth will often inspire some less confident fellow disciple to 'stand up and be counted."
John Wilson [Toronto West (Can)] Comment added in 2004 Reply to John